Media Literacy's Moment with Tim Krueger

In which Dan talks media literacy--the skills needed to responsibly decode, assess, and create media--with Tim Krueger, a Social Studies teacher in Syracuse, New York, and someone who's been doing a ton of thinking and teaching about this essential topic. The proliferation of information, misinformation, and disinformation (especially as we enter an election year), all super charged by social media, partisan divides and, now, artificial intelligence, makes now the perfect time for teachers to dive into media literacy.

Mentioned in the episode:
Verified: How to Think Straight, Get Duped Less, and Make Better Decisions about What to Believe Online by Mike Caulfield and Sam Wineburg
"Internet at School Is Changing Work of Students--and Teachers", Washington Post, Sept, 2000
Media Literacy Now, an advocacy group calling for states to mandate media literacy curriculum
News Literacy Project provides a rich bank of resources and learning platforms for teachers at all grade levels
How to Teach Media and News Literacy with Ebonee Rice, What's the Big Idea?, Nov, 2021
Adfontes Media Bias Chart - an incredible visual tool for exploring media outlets
"When Teens Find Misinformation, These Teachers Are Ready" (featuring Tim Krueger), NY Times, Sept 2022
"Elections and Disinformation Are Colliding Like Never Before in 2024", NY Times, Jan 2024
"Fake Joe Biden robocall tells New Hampshire Democrats not to vote Tuesday", NBC News, Jan 2024

Music by Ruben Ramos

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:13

These kids, they're not they're not going to TikTok to look for news. It's it's being slipped to them, you know? And and and so much of what we want to say is, you know, show them instances from the past, equip them with the tools to fight misinformation. Um, but the general apathy is they want the mindless scroll, and it just seeps in. It just, it, it, that misinformation is there in the background, uh, sometimes in the foreground. Um, and they they soak it up.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

Welcome to What's the Big Idea? I'm your host, Dan Carney. I recently read this in a news story. Quote, I think that for the most part, teachers are excited about it, said Barbara Stein, an education technology analyst at the National Education Association. This is sort of the ultimate enhancement of resource for the classroom. But I do think teachers have been frustrated sometimes at trying to identify the best uses of the new technology, close quote. The source of this quote: a September 2000 article in the Washington Post titled, Internet at School is Changing the Work of Students and Teachers. The report highlights the excitement and apprehension surrounding the Internet's first widespread use in schools. Schools which, the article points out, suffer from shortages of tech-trained teachers. But the awe at the possibilities of the internet in education is palpable throughout the piece. Well, flash forward almost 24 years later, and we're at what feels to many like another inflection point in technology, media, and ultimately media literacy. There are varying definitions of media literacy. For today's purposes, I'll go with how it's framed by Media Literacy Now, an advocacy group. It's the ability to decode media messages, assess the influence of those messages on our thoughts, feelings, and behaviors, and to create media thoughtfully and conscientiously. Just try this. Type media literacy into Google News and see how much attention this issue is getting right now. And of course it is. The proliferation of information, misinformation, and disinformation, especially as we enter an election year, all supercharged by social media and partisan divides, means that we're living in an era that those teachers from 2000 could never have dreamed of. And then along comes ChatGPT, which has unleashed a whole new current of excitement, bewilderment, possibilities, and fear. And as with so many other societal trends, schools are at the tip of the spear. The good news is that there are a lot of people and organizations doing some amazing thinking and work with media literacy, many of which I've linked in the show notes, and some of which you'll hear discussed in today's conversation. I reached out to Tim Kruger, a teacher in Sterf East, New York, who's deeply engaged with and teaching about media literacy. My hope is that this conversation gives you something to think about in your own media literacy journey and some new tools to add to your repertoire. How did you what was your journey to becoming uh a media literacy junkie, somebody who's really into the idea of media literacy? What how what got you there?

SPEAKER_01 4:05

Uh we were doing the presidential election of 2006, 2020, the 2020 election. Um, and I always do a thing with my eighth graders, um, I side with uh they they go on the what uh do you know the website?

SPEAKER_00 4:18

You you you you give your your views and then it shows you kind of where you fall percentage-wise.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

Right, right. So uh this was COVID year, so you know, I remote, all of that stuff. And I had the kids doing um, they would they would put into a Google Classroom like who they would who they think they would vote for, and then they do the i side with, and then they put in who i side with said they would vote for. And I had several parents who were very angry about this. And I I literally sat down on my computer one day after you know all the phone calls that were coming into my principal and and whatever. And um, there's a survey on my uh on my email uh from AFT, and I anger replied to the survey, which you should never do. Um, and I got put, I was, I joined up with this group that was uh the civics design team through AFT, and we have created um uh uh civics training for teachers across the country. Um, and I dove into the media literacy aspect of it. Um and you know, through several companies and you know, several websites out there and all of that. We did you know hours and hours of research, and it's just mind-boggling. And I watched these kids, and the other thing that got me into this that same year, I had my ninth graders were in class, and a kid raised his hand, great kid, and says, Ms. Kruger, is is Helen Keller real? And I'm like, what? What do you mean? They're like, There's no way she did all those things, like that is she was made up, and I'm like, oh, oh my gosh. Well, this is a TikTok trend at the time that Helen Keller didn't really exist, and I was just blown away by that, the power of social media to alter history, you know. Um, so that's kind of the running joke with my classes, all my successive AP classes after that. They're like, hey, uh Mr. Kruger, we heard that uh Helen Keller's not real, just to get me going. Anyway, so that was kind of my journey.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

I I heard that too. Some students were asking me that. I didn't understand why they were asking me that though. Um take time. Yeah. I think I think a lot of teachers, teachers who are interested in media literacy or think about media have moments like that. It's like the the the scene from Jaws, like we're gonna need a bigger boat when something happens and you're like, oh, this is even bigger than I thought. I remember just a few years ago priming a media literacy mini unit, and before I could even get into it, we were just doing some simple Google searches, and as I watched them interact with Google, it was, it was like they had no conception of sort of how to use Google. And I thought, oh, this is this is actually a far bigger uh issue than I thought it was. Um what do you make of the, you know, we've we've been told for years about young people being digital natives. What's your what are your thoughts on that concept?

SPEAKER_01 7:21

I heard a great, and I don't remember where I heard this. Um I heard a an analogy to cell phones and and internet and digital and all of this to cars, you know. Um we didn't really understand cars. Like the first I remember sitting in the back of a station wagon. I remember riding in the back of a pickup truck, you know, out on the farm. Um, and then you know, safety belts and and all of these things come over time. Well, we're we're in that same boat, and we're the adults now who we didn't grow up with this digital age. Um and we're the ones that are stuck trying to figure out what the safeguards are for this. How how how do we how do we instill the the equivalent of safety belts into media for our students? How do we instill um this idea of media literacy to kids who are uh tech savvy and and and that this is all they've grown up with? Like they they don't understand what a map was, you know? Um so yeah, they're they're they're very advanced in some ways, and they're so naive in others. Um, and it's it's a quite a juxtaposition that we're stuck trying to figure out how to teach them the right way. Does that answer your question?

SPEAKER_00 8:45

No, it totally does. I it it really it mirrors my own thinking that the gulf between what they can intuitively do with technology, but their ability to evaluate it. And and there's so much of it, there's so much coming at them that maybe it's unfair to even say that they can't evaluate it or process it. But I agree with that. You you use the seatbelt analogy, so maybe now's a good time to sort of ask for your definition of media literacy. What when when you use that phrase, what do you mean?

SPEAKER_01 9:14

So many people want to frame it in into a political perspective, and and there is that, but it's just the ability to analyze, you know, and evaluate information from a variety of sources and from a variety of mediums, you know, to kind of distinguish fact from fiction. I I guess that's my biggest thing. Decide whatever you are reading is trustworthy. I think that's the the the short of it, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:43

I think so. Yeah, it's the um when there's so much information out there, and it's you can get to it very quickly. And I think that's what challenge we have with students is that it's the I'm gonna jump on the first thing I found, looks great, I'm gonna use it. Um why didn't we need media literacy? Why was why was media literacy not talked about when we were kids?

SPEAKER_01 10:07

Well, so that's a good point, right? Like I I had to open up encyclopedias and read about information. I think about that. That's a really phenomenal question. Who who told us that that was right? In the same sense, when we talk about media and news organizations, people have been complaining about it for a long time. You know, I remember when Fox came out and it was like, we're gonna be fair and balanced, and it's gonna be and I didn't really understand that there was a left-leaning bias to ABC, NBC, CDS um until Fox told us there was. And it's interesting now because there are so many news outlets, and now so many news outlets with a web page, and so and I guess we just took it to heart that that's what it was, but I I'm pretty sure even as a kid, uh high school, I remember thinking that or at least knowing that the media leaned in one direction, so it was already there to a certain extent. We didn't have the the the the variety, and we didn't have the quick access. Like even talking about having a conversation about who's the best quarterback of all time, like now you can pull up numbers, like back then this is what I think, and uh it worked, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:41

And media was so much simpler in its packaging, at least, right? You had newspaper, and you had your three, four TV stations, which in their defense were they may have been gatekeepers, but they were professional. You know, today young people get their news on TikTok, and um, there's there's there's a price to be paid for the speed at which we get it. There, there's you know, this reminds me of there's a um professor in uh in Washington, Mike Caulfield, who's written a lot about media literacy, and something he wrote years ago struck me. You know, that's what you were talking about, the uh separating fact from fiction and what's trustworthy and what's not. And he said that we're we're in an age now where the big one of the biggest threats is what he called the gullibility of a cynic. That people begin to internalize the idea that nothing's really trustworthy. But what but as soon as you start to think nothing's trustworthy, you really are opening yourself up to fall for anything. And he and and he he he he calls media literacy a currency. And he says, you have to be careful where you spend it, but you you have to spend it. You have to be able to put your trust somewhere, or else you're really opening yourself up to, I think, a lot of the things that we're talking about, the Helen Keller is not real phenomenon.

unknown 12:56

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

And don't get me wrong, these kids, they're not, they're not going to TikTok to look for news. It's it's being slipped to them, you know? And and and so much of what we want to say is, you know, show them instances from the past, equip them with the tools to fight misinformation. Um, but the general apathy is they want the mindless scroll, and it just seeps in. It just it it that misinformation is there in the background, uh, sometimes in the foreground. Um, and they they soak it up. So trying to teach them like the tools and whatnot to to you know, let's let's find what's trustworthy. Um, let's check Snopes, let's check factcheck.org, let's, you know, let's do all those things. They don't they don't want to do that. It's not that's not where the comfort level is.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

So maybe we we go there now and talk about what are the the the tools we can give them. What are you doing in your classroom? What's some work that you've done? I know you you've you've spent some time developing programs. I was just talking to my son the other day about muscle memory, you know, about what what that means, how we, you know, learning to do something to the point where you don't think about it. Um you know, is is it possible, I guess my bigger question here, is it possible to build media literacy muscle memory in our students? Um but maybe we maybe we can get to that. Maybe first we just kind of examine what are some tools and strategies that you use that you think are effective.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

Yes, you can build muscle memory from showing them how to go about. I mean, the very rudimentary one, Google search. Notice that it says sponsored on the first three. Don't just trust the first one, right? Um, media literacy in terms of news media. Um I share with them um a couple of different sites. Probably the biggest one is Ad Fontes, their media literacy or their um media bias chart, uh, which is phenomenal and constantly updated. And and and they're kind of blown away by that. Uh what I'll do is I'll put it up on the board blank and then have them guess where they think CNN goes. And they put a sticky note up there that says CNN, sticky note that says CBS and sticky note that says Fox and whatever.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

I actually I I love this tool that you're talking about. I wonder if you can maybe take a second to explain to the listener um the AdFontase uh bias chart, how it's laid out and and and as a as a user, what you can get out of it.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

Oh, it's glorious. Um I I've been with them for a few years now. They put out a chart uh that is not just the left-right bias chart, it's also uh, I guess for lack of a better word, trustworthiness. Uh so it goes from the very top being just fact reporting to the bottom being propaganda and everything in between, right? Um, so you've got the left-right skew, you've got the uh fact reporting to opinion to um propaganda at the bottom. And then what it does is they take and they've got and they and they say very clearly, we are biased out of all the people that work on this, everybody has their own biases, and that's cool because we have both sides of it. And they come to a consensus on what they've been seeing in terms of news organizations, and sometimes they'll split them up between TV and web. Um, and you can see a big difference between, say, CNN TV and CNN web are different, uh, same with Fox. Anyway, um, and it lays it out in this kind of arc um on where they lie, and it's it's fascinating to the kids. I mean, they I I will lose an hour on this thing because they're blown away by well, how you know, and and the questions they're asking are good, and and then we go in and we start looking at their websites to see if they can spot that stuff. Um News Literacy Project does a great uh piece on that that I kind of beg barred and stole, uh, where they go in and look at it from a perspective of where where does this news organization get its money? Um, go to the about the website um tab and see, you know, what what what their overall goal is, but then to take a couple of websites and just compare them. Front page splash. Um what's the big news of the day? And I did this, this was a while back when Trump was impeached the first time. I really wanted to hit this home. I went to I did a screenshot of the uh CNN website and a screenshot of the Fox website, just the front page, and it was CNN was impeached in bold. You couldn't even find the word impeached on the Fox one. And I'm like, guys, this is kind of what I've been talking about, right? Um, but Advontes has been has been fabulous. There's other sites out there that do uh a similar thing. Um the one is escaping my mind right now. Um they do more on trustworthiness, uh, but they they'll do the SKU left and right as well. Um, there's a ton of different resources out there that people can go to, but um the key is when you find that resource, like Ad Fonte's, read about what they're doing and how they come up with their um their rubric for this and how they they place these things. And I share that with the kids. I make them look it up and see is this just some biased left wing or right wing site that's putting this up and and it's it gets it gets their wheels turning on that. Now, is that something that they're gonna do on their own someday? Hopefully. But we can introduce it at least at this level.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

Healthy skepticism you're introducing. I a teacher listening now might be wondering um, is media literacy in your class a unit? Is it integrated into what you do? And if it's integrated, how do you do that? Because we know that as teachers, we're out we already have so much we're trying to do. And even states right now are struggling whether they mandate media literacy or not. And if they do, how do they do that? Because teachers are already pressured to get through so much content. So, how do you work it into what you're doing?

SPEAKER_01 19:17

Yeah, no doubt. Um, so I being in New York, uh, there is a push for media literacy. It's not mandated yet. I think there's only four states that have it mandated at this point. New York State has jumped on this seal of civic readiness. Uh, you can graduate with um an extra little uh thing on your diploma that says you have graduated with the seal of civic readiness. Um, and there's certain criteria that you have to hit, blah, blah, blah. I'm actually starting an elective in my school next year uh on civics, and it's gonna you know touch on a lot of these things. Media literacy is a big part of it, um, as well as you know, the the the four pillars, I guess we call them, of of civic learning. Um, but we do so much of it in our classrooms, you know, without even thinking about it. I just finished yellow journalism uh in Spanish American War with my eighth graders, and that's a perfect opportunity to dive into sensationalism and bias, right? Um, my ninth graders, in terms of AP, I mean, they that is one of the things that they do on the DBQ. You're you're sourcing documents, right? Um, and if you just tie that in to today, it helps them understand how to source a document better because we've already been talking about current events and whatever in media literacy. So there are tie-ins everywhere. Um, in New York, I have a feeling we're heading towards a mandate for media literacy. Um we're not there yet. Uh, but the seal of civic readiness will help with that. But so it to do another unit, yeah. I can hear teachers balking and being like, well, what am I gonna what am I gonna cut out to fit that in? Um and I say personally, at least in our school, we just we we touch on it when we can. Uh, bring up current events and use that as a tool. Um and and and it's tough, you know. I live in a very purple district of New York, uh, which is some might find interesting. Um, I'm upstate. So it's you gotta walk a thin uh kind of a thin line there in terms of um showing bias all around rather than just you know beating some drum that some parents will find anti-Republican and so on.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Yeah, there are just there are some issues that are very illustrative of what we're talking about, and they just tend to skew a way that some parents are not stoked about. Yeah. Um, how has a uh And Chat GPT began to complicate this issue, which already was complicated, which already a lot of teachers are feeling like I'm behind the eight ball on this, I play in catch up, and then along comes artificial intelligence. What are you seeing? What are you thinking? Well, we're still in the early days of this, but where are you at on this?

SPEAKER_01 22:21

You know, our district, and I think a lot of districts are jumping on this and saying, hey, you know what? We're going to use it. Um I think we have to teach them the tools. Uh it's it's wildly useful in some areas. Um reverse image search, uh, fact-checking websites, you know, all of those create a general skepticism. Um, I, you know, I love talking about just look at the fingers on the pictures, you can see, you know. Um, these are all helpful programs in many places. Um, harmful in others, obviously. I'm gonna let it write my paper for me. Um I I fear for our students' abilities to write uh in the future when you've got a program that can just do it for you. Uh but you know, we've adapted. We've we've uh if my kids write essays, they they they do it on paper. Um but I I don't think we can like try to hide it from them. I think we need to teach them the proper way to use it. And the kids have done some amazing things with it. It's it's actually kind of fun. We've been playing around with um, I can't, we have a an imaging um AI that the media classes in our school have been playing with, and we we had a ball with it, but I don't know. I think we have to slowly incorporate it as the tool, um, but we gotta keep our eye on their their skills as well.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

Yeah, I th I I think schools are remiss if they're not trying to uh yeah, get into it. And and like you said, it's a tool and and it feels like like in a lot of ways we're in the maybe earl very early 2000s when you can imagine a teacher looking at a student and saying, you used the internet to get information for this? And we would have thought, well, why wouldn't I? It's a it's just an amazing new tool. And they're I think they're thinking the same thing. Why wouldn't I use Chat GPT? Um, but being really explicit about what the shortcomings are.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

No, no doubt.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

You know, at the beginning of this conversation, you were talking about you know, this whole um concept of what's real, what's not, what's trustworthy, what's not. And AI now with voice generation, video generation. I just this morning saw that in New Hampshire, today's the I think today's the primary for Republicans, there's a AI generated Joe Biden making robocalls. People are getting calls from Joe Biden and it sounds just like him.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

Scary. It's it's really scary. What what we have I remember when, do you remember when uh um it was on a talk show and Bill Hayter was on and they slowly he was doing an Arnold Schwarzenegger uh like accent, and then they the they did the deep fake where they slowly transformed his face into Arnold Schwarzenegger. And I remember thinking, this is years ago, thinking, wow, what how are we gonna tell what's real and what's not? This is just a fast forward on that, right? And so if we don't get teach them what this is, if we don't introduce it to them and show them that there are benefits to it as well, but also how scary it can be, um, that's where building that general skepticism is just crucial, especially even at this age.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

And on that note, I'm curious your thoughts on just the overlap or the interlock between uh media literacy and citizenship. You know, the um there's been so much, you know, just um to read something from recently from the The New York Times saying uh about upcoming elections around the world, that baseless claims of election fraud have battered trust in democracy, foreign influence campaigns regularly target polarizing domestic challenges, artificial intelligence has supercharged disinformation efforts and distorted perceptions of reality. How can we, especially in as social studies teachers, history teachers, how can we keep shaping responsible citizens and using media literacy as a way to do that?

SPEAKER_01 26:28

Well, first of all, we have to make sure, excuse me, that they understand this is not new, right? Like this is putting words in other people's mouths and and and blatant falsehoods. Part of the reason that we the the the the program that we created for AFT, um, my part on digital citizenship and media literacy uh is called what is truth. Um and and truth can be slippery. It always has been slippery. Um I remember when we used to call it spin, that that was that was so much kinder and gentler back then. Now it's just fake news, right? Um and and the spin-up on this and the ability, I mean, like you just said, robocalls from an AI Joe Biden. I mean, that's that's diabolic. Um we need to make sure that our kids the the skepticism is part of it. The the deciding whatever that you're reading is trustworthy is is a huge part of that. Knowing the places that they feel they can trust to go to, where the ad font taste does a great job with that. You know, all of this is uh is of a piece. Um, but you know, Ben Franklin said it best. It's a republic, if you can keep it. And and we have to fight for it. We have to fight for that trying to find the most honest path, um and and and teach them to do that.

SPEAKER_00 28:00

But it it's it's it's amazing how you know, I was just thinking as you were talking, I was thinking about media, especially the way it comes at us today, and emotion, you know, like how it it supercharges our emotions. And you know, one thing I often say to students is one of the best things you can do when you find something, come across something on TikTok, especially or Instagram, is just stop. Like just give yourself a few minutes to think about it.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

So huge before before you share, right?

SPEAKER_00 28:37

Yeah, and just the idea that if you if you just let it maybe not even think about it, just let your subconscious mull over it for a bit. Come back to it. But before you do anything with it, say anything about it, repost it, comment on it, give yourself a chance to really think about is this is this something I should be sharing? Is this true?

SPEAKER_01 28:55

Right. Is this real? Is this is this intended? Uh and and that's another thing that I teach them, you know, misinformation versus disinformation, you know, misinformation, birds aren't real. It's freaking hilarious. I love it. Um disinformation is designed to make you want to share something, create a response, an angry response, and and and blast that out there. And I and listen, there's social media um influencers out there that they're getting paid for this. Um, there's other people that are just funny um and and make memes that are funny. And and I'm down. I I I'll do the mindless scroll now and then as well. Um, but you you hit it on the head. Just hold on. Before you, before you share, before you just let it sink in a little bit. Um, that is that is such a good point.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Teaching in America is so decentralized. There's so many of us coming in different comfort levels. And and having someone like you who has thought about media literacy and can support other teachers, I think is really important for districts, for buildings. And I understand you've done some work with Cleveland. Am I remembering that correctly?

SPEAKER_01 30:08

Yeah, no, we we we that we have teachers from all over the country. Um, there's five of us in the secondary, uh, one from Boston, um, two from Cleveland, one from Houston, uh, and then myself. Um, and we created a professional development um that's focused around uh the idea of citizenship, the idea of, I mean, it's basically it's called deepening civic skills through classroom dialogue. And and a huge part of that is the idea of dialogue in the classroom. How do we go about that? How do we get kids to feel comfortable sharing their ideas, having a discussion, and not having it turn into a fight? Because if we can teach those skills at this age, the idea on the other end is they are able to have that civic dialogue. And so the first day we go through, you know, setting up the setting the stage in the classroom, uh, you know, why civics matters, um, building a comfortable uh classroom environment. Then I go into my piece on digital um citizenship and media literacy. Um, I do one piece on social media, one piece on news media. Um, and then we dive into different types of um classroom discussion, be it philosophical chairs, um, structured academic controversy, um, harkness, uh, which I've used many times in class. It's fascinating and awesome. Um, and then trying to do some sort of um you know project-based learning. Anyway, it's a two-day, it should be a two-day um professional development. And our first time that we did that uh as a pilot was in Cleveland. Um brought in some teachers and it was great.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

How does being someone that can engage in civil discourse? What's the overlap with having um being being a media literate person?

SPEAKER_01 32:22

So much of it is about just accepting other people's ideas. Uh, whether you agree with them or disagree with them, you're you're not gonna change their mind by saying, no, no, hold on. I I read it here, you know. Um, being able to see both sides of an argument, even if you are adamantly opposed. Um and and and being able to really a big part of this is giving teachers some strategies in their classrooms that on on to be able to talk about controversial issues, you know. Um teachers are clamoring for that. How do how do I talk about the big news of the day? Well, uh, when Roe fell, it was how do I how do I have that discussion without feeling like I might get in trouble? Um, and the idea is presenting both sides and letting the students work it out. Um so if if kids are better at discussion and civil discourse and being able to have a discussion without it turning into a fight, maybe they'll be better at looking for what their truth is or what the truth is in their worldview. You know what I mean? Um and maybe that will help them with when they're doing the mindless scroll. Well, that's not real. Or that makes me think maybe I should look that up. Um, as well as looking at the different media sites out there and saying, This one I know is skewed, this one is gonna give me more of an honest truth. So I think they go hand in hand. I think all of it goes hand in hand. That media literacy is a civic skill, just like having a thoughtful discussion is a civic skill. And that's gonna lead them more to the things like civic dispositions and then hopefully eventually civic participation.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

Very well said. I couldn't agree more with the how you phrased the media literacy as a civic skill. Um I just want to get it out of here on this. Um, I mentioned Mike Caulfield earlier. He published a book with Sam Weinberg from Stanford last year called Verified, very thoughtful book about um media literacy. Yeah, very practical. It's a very practical text, um, more than philosophical. But they at one point say um something about they're referring to the the dawn of the internet and those of us who sort of watch the internet grow. And they they write, it promised an information superhighway that would put us in the driver's seat. So why does it feel like the internet is driving us? And I just kind of want to hear your thoughts on this idea that you know, when it when we're talking about media literacy and media and the all of the ways that we receive it and what we receive. I mean, I guess my question is like, how in control are we? And how can we show students that they can be in control when sometimes it feels like like they say the internet's driving us?

SPEAKER_01 35:24

Oh, without a doubt. I mean, you gotta have the new iPhone, you gotta have this, you have to have the the the boost, you have to. It's capitalism, right? I mean, we we people found a way to make money off of it. Um, I'm doing the 30s here soon, and I always show them a few clips from Cinderella Man, and uh the one part where he says, you know, you guys just haven't figured out a way to make money off of me, uh in this one scene. Um anyway, I I guess that's the other part of this, the the cynical skepticism we're trying to build in. Uh we are not in the driver's seat. And and we're as teachers, we're rarely in the driver's seat. We're reacting to what's coming at them. Um, but I mean, people are making money off of it, and and I go back to the influencers, right? Somebody figured out a way to make money off of some of the most ridiculous things, and and we're influenced by it because we are users of social media and the internet and and wow. No, that we're capitalism. There's the word.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Yeah, and we didn't really even get into like just the the creation side of media literacy.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

Right.

SPEAKER_00 36:50

I mean, that's a whole other thing. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that before we close, but just you know, there's there's the passive consumption, there's some active consumption if their minds are switched on, and then there's the whole creation. And and how do you getting young people to think you know, you don't never want to stifle their creativity, their entrepreneurship, but how to do it in a way that is linked with being a good citizen, as you said.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

Well, it's funny. Um, I became uh an influencer. I uh I started on Instagram in which I share cocktail ideas that my wife and I were sharing. We could call it cocktails on the porch, uh because we bought a house that has this beautiful porch and a little stream that goes by. I was like, you know what? I'm gonna take pictures of these and I'm gonna send them out and and and show the ingredients, and you can make this cocktail. I'm like, I'm an influencer now with all 65 of my followers. Um, so I'm I'm I'm a big deal. Uh, but there's fun in that creation, right? There's fun in that, oh, I'm gonna take the picture this way and and whatever. Um, I've gotten Spindrift to give me a thumbs up one time. So that was that's one of my big, you know, uh accomplishments. But these kids are making stuff that is mind-blowingly incredible. I mean, they're artistic in ways that I didn't know you could do with a phone, and so that's great, but you're right, we have to teach them to be mindful about their own media literacy when they're sending stuff out, because that could have a huge effect on someone else as well. So yeah, I know you're right. You you hit it on the head. You you don't want to stifle their creativity, but again, mindfulness to all of this.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

Something tells me we'll be talking about this uh edit for a long time. This what's the new thing that's gonna be? Yeah, oh no, yeah, yeah. Uh when when we when uh when we get to like chat 12, I'll give you a call back. We can talk and see how we're doing.

unknown 38:52

Perfect.

SPEAKER_00 38:53

Timothy Kruger, thanks so much for taking the time to join me. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 38:57

No, I appreciate it. Um, you guys uh take care out there.

SPEAKER_00 39:09

A big thanks to Tim Kruger for joining me. Something that struck me about our chat was how much all of its media literacy is a work in progress. The nature of media means that to be truly literate in it, we need to be flexible and only to grow and change. We don't have this all figured out, and you shouldn't feel like you have to either. Stay open-minded, experiment, and be transparent about your thinking with your students and kids. And check out the show notes for resources, and let me highlight one in particular. Verify, the new book from Mike Caulfield and Sam Weinberg. It's a brilliantly organized, often funny, and ultimately highly practical guide to living online without being duped. If you're a parent or a teacher, or just someone interested in how we interact with media in the 21st century, this short book, this concise book is a must read. Thanks for checking out what's the big idea as always. Love to hear your thoughts and comments on Instagram, on Threads, on X, at Big Idea Ed. Uh, this one in particular, this is such a dynamic, fast-changing topic. And I'd love to hear your thoughts. Stay safe out there, everybody. Hope you're having a great school year, a great 2024, and uh see you next time.