What's the Big Idea?
A podcast about big ideas in education. Tune in to listen and think, then respond on Instagram @_dankearney_ and Bluesky @dankearney
What's the Big Idea?
Helping Teachers Talk About Race
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In which Dan talks with Jinnie Spiegler, director of Curriculum and Training at the Anti-Defamation League. If 2020 has shown us anything, it's the importance of being able to talk about race in the classroom. But too often teachers don't. We're limited by feelings of discomfort or defensiveness, the pressures of curriculum pacing, or maybe we just don't see it as our job. This is a mistake and a missed opportunity. Luckily, we're supported by organizations like the Anti-Defamation League. Dan and Jinnie discuss teacher discomfort, how leadership can support us, and why student action is so crucial.
Visit the ADL for incredible resources for creating the right classroom environment for those difficult conversations.
Mentioned in the show:
Anti-Defamation League: Resources for Educators, Parents & Families
Anti-Defamation League: How Should I Talk about Race in My Mostly White Classroom?
Education Week: Are America's Schools Ready for Tough Talk on Racism?
Music: "Que Extrano Es" by Molo courtesy of Tribe of Noise
Hey listeners, down here. A couple of weeks ago, uh I had an episode with uh Karen Murphy from Facing History Ourselves, and we talked about uh ways that we can empower teachers and students to have productive conversations about important but sensitive topics like race in the election. Uh talking with uh spoiler from the formation of another organization working really hard on this and providing some excellent resources. So I encourage you to have a listen and go back and listen uh two episodes ago and uh pour these two together to really prepare yourself for for the important conversations we need to be having students. All right, on the girl.
SPEAKER_00So um, you know, most teachers are not necessarily accustomed to talking about race. They may have, as you said, discomfort um with not really feeling like that's something that they can talk about.
SPEAKER_01Welcome to What's the Big Idea? I'm your host, Dan Carney. Today on the show, I'm joined by the director of curriculum and training from the Anti-Defamation League, Jenny Spieler. The Anti-Defamation League is a leading anti-hope group. Uh, if you've heard of them, you've probably heard of them uh in the vein of fighting anti-Semitism. That's actually mostly how the organization started over a hundred years ago. It's about stopping all forms of hope. Uh and they've got an incredible bank of educational resources. They're doing some really important work, really timely work, helping teachers and students um pick apart discuss uh race, uh, white supremacy, um racism, anthropologism, and constructive ways about tapping to current events and history. Well, if you listen two episodes ago, you heard my conversation with Karen Murphy Football History. That's a different way was doing a lot of same work, uh, albeit with different resources. And I think this is a this is a um a really important conversation right now. I think we uh I think this is one of the most important conversations we've had. You know, I thought conversation in class just recently and uh we touched on um uh voting rights. We talk about voting rights or poll taxes with the tax and there was a moment when students were talking about race and racism, and you were just kind of stumbling over the words and kind of brain was kind of short circling, and everyone kind of got uncomfortable laughing with a conversation about how hard it is to talk about these things. But if we can't even acknowledge what's hard to talk about these things, I'm not sure what the progress is gonna come from. And this conversation with those people is a really good one if you're a bunch of people who wants to have this hard conversation to help our students. We've got incredible resources from week. So, um, sit back for the next 20 minutes, uh, enjoy this conversation, and then roll for clues and see what they've got uh their website and if it can work for you and your students. All right, here's my conversation with Jimmy Speaker. Well, Jimmy Speaker, thanks so much for joining me today on the podcast. Uh, I want to start with uh a couple headlines. About here in California, the LA Times just in the past uh week has run a couple headlines. For the fifth year in a row, hate crimes rise in Orange County, violent hate crimes in LA hit highest level in more than a decade. White supremacist acts jump 38%. And uh just want to jump right into this. Where do you see education playing a vital role in um in issues like this, in preventing issues like this?
SPEAKER_00Hi, Dan. Thanks so much for having me. Um, yes, we see hate incidents, hate crimes, vandalism, all those kinds of things that are happening in society, in schools as well. Um, and we see very much that the most important thing in education is to really educate young people about bias and about discrimination. And it really starts. We have something called the pyramid of hate, it really starts at the bottom with biased attitudes and biased acts that happen every day in society and in schools. And then, you know, um it can escalate when it's not interrupted into these more serious and physical and violent acts of bias and hate. So we really want to, in education, um, educate young people from a very young age to think more expansively about the world, about other people, and about how to challenge bias in themselves and in others and in society. That is really our goal.
SPEAKER_01And you work at the curriculum and training division at the Anti-Defamation League. Um, you want to talk just a little bit more broadly about the mission of the ADL and then maybe a bit more specifically about your division?
SPEAKER_00Sure. Um, our mission, which has been our mission since 1913, is to stop the defamation of the Jewish people and secure justice and fair treatment for all. And so we do that through our 25 regional offices around the country where we engage in advocacy, investigation, and education. So we have a Center on Extremism that really works on some of those issues, um, a civil rights department that talks and works a lot on hate crimes. And then within education, um, we have programs, trainings, and resources for K-12 schools and colleges and universities that really um the goal is to help the next generation challenge bias in ourselves, in others, and in society. So, you know, we do that through our programs, through our training, for schools, for educators, for students, and for families.
SPEAKER_01What would you say is the biggest challenge right now that you see in education in terms of uh reducing bias and helping students come to terms with these difficult topics?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, there's there's three intersecting things happening right now. One is obviously the pandemic, and so many young people are learning at home by themselves and with their families. So we've been really um working a lot on bringing the concepts and the training that we normally do in person online. Um, then of course, we have um, which really got ignited over the summer, but that's been happening for several years and more. Um, you know, just this public conversation about racial justice and other issues of bias and oppression. Um, I'll I will say we have an online lesson plan on Black Lives Matter. It's been getting the most um hits really um for the past several months, like every day. And we're selling more anti-biased curriculum more than ever before. Um, and also another issue which intersects with anti-biased education is social emotional learning, because you know, it was definitely a priority in schools before, but it really helps young people, you know, have those hard conversations. So, you know, they really need to really understand like how to create a positive environment in the classroom so they can talk about these hard issues, to be aware of their feelings and the feelings of others, to work collaboratively, you know, to actually create some caring in the classroom so that they can hear other points of view, which are sometimes hard when there's when there's controversy and when there's disagreement and when things are heated, or when they affect young people personally, um, which many of these issues do. So, you know, I think the intersection of those three things happening right now are really challenging, and we're trying to meet those challenges as as best we can.
SPEAKER_01We can't just, as teachers, we can't just suddenly start taking on challenging or sensitive topics if we haven't done the work, we haven't laid the groundwork for a classroom culture that values perspectives. And and I I my observations, and I I'd be curious if you agree with this. My observations tell me that one of the biggest barriers to having these uh important conversations that actually move uh that that help us progress as a society in the classroom is the comfort level of teachers, and that teachers often at best don't feel comfortable talking about these issues, and but even worse, often feel quite defensive and don't feel like they have should even be talking about them at all. And I wonder if you've observed in your in your work anything like that.
SPEAKER_00Definitely, for sure. Um, I think some of that groundwork is something that's is sometimes ignored. We actually um I think also talking about bias and oppression, it needs to be there need to be scaffold, it needs to be scaffolded. So we have um in our framework, we first um talk about identity. And you know, we have multiple identities, my identity, your identity, then we move to differences and really being able to interpret differences, then we look at bias. How do we understand what bias is? What are what is all the language around bias, really understanding bias, and then how do we challenge bias to bring you know social justice? I do find, and then I think we all find that it is particularly challenging for teachers, and most teachers are white. 80% of the teachers in the teaching force are white, and one of the first white privileges that white people have is that we don't have to talk about race. So um, you know, most teachers are not necessarily accustomed to talking about race. They may have, as you said, discomfort with not really feeling like that's something that they can talk about. They might not have, you know, background in talking about race and racism. They may feel like they need to know all the answers. Teachers often feel like, you know, I really need to be an expert on this to bring this to young people, or they might feel like they could say the wrong thing or they're gonna make mistakes. Um, and some people, you know, still believe in I'm colorblind, you know, I don't see color. I think they feel like if they don't see it, that makes them not notice it and not racist. And we know that's that's not the case, but many people still believe this. So um I think there's also a concern that if they do discuss it, um that the bias will emerge, the controversy and conflict may emerge, and that will be challenging too. So, you know, that that's why setting group guidelines for safety and respect, um, for really creating a classroom environment where students can talk about their own experiences and people can listen and hear about those experiences and share their own is very important. Um, and at the same time, it's not really the students' responsibility to share their own experiences as a way of bringing those topics to the classroom. The teacher can bring in those voices in a lot of different ways. But yes, I think it's it's particularly challenging. I, you know, there was just a study that came out, um, I think it was like in the last few days, that 90% of school superintendents said that conversations about race and equity were extremely important, but only 21% said that they were very well prepared for that responsibility. So that's coming from superintendents and then down to principals and then to teachers. So, you know, they that's one of the reasons we have programs, training, and lots of resources to really help them be able to manage those conversations and give them resources and tools to do so.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the that study on superintendents. I was gonna go there next about school leadership because, of course, as teachers, we're also balancing uh the demands of the curriculum, possibly any testing. Uh, we have to think about the reaction of our community, our parents. And and so I I was gonna ask that about what can school leadership do to make it clear to teachers that A, they want teachers talking about these issues, and B making them or empowering them to do so. And I think you kind of alluded to that already. You have a lot of resources, and maybe you want to talk a bit more about uh how you can we can empower leaders to empower teachers.
SPEAKER_00Right. I mean, you know, I think it's important that principals make it a priority, so that's important that they communicate with parents that um, you know, and the community that we are going to address these issues. And we did see a lot of that in the late spring, um, when Black Lives Matter was really um at the forefront of a lot of conversation. You know, you you would see a lot of principals sending letters home, even in my daughter's school, there's a letter home, this is a priority, this is important. And at the same time, not just saying it's important, but providing professional development time, professional development dollars, um, an openness for teachers and setting a priority for them that this is something we want you to integrate into your curriculum. It's it's more challenging as students get older because there are so many demands, like you said, testing and covering the curriculum. At the same time, they're intellectually very capable and interested in talking about those issues. Um, you know, but we feel like we can start with elementary for sure. We have elementary curriculum, um, and it's very important to start early. Children begin to develop prejudices at a very young age. Um, they they notice identity, um, they notice their own identity and the identity of others, you know, by the age of three or four, and can even begin to develop biases at a young age. So, and with that, um at the same, another reason it's so important is because the increasing diversity of our schools, as of 2014, we had more students of color than white students, and that's going to continue to um change and increase over the years. And so it's important that the teachers, you know, are really creating culturally responsive curriculum and also are bringing these issues that are important to all students, but definitely students of color, um, to the classroom and integrate them.
SPEAKER_01You brought up that most teachers are white. Um, and I want to kind of drill down on this a bit. Over the summer, um, your organization posted a really great resource uh addressing the challenge of white teachers talking about these issues with white students in environments where maybe some people are thinking or saying, but this doesn't affect us. Why why are we talking about this? How what can white teachers do in situations like this where most, if not all, of their students are white and maybe feel disconnected from the lack of social justice in communities around this country?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that um this is an important issue for all young people growing up in our multicultural and diverse society. Um, and so, you know, first and foremost, getting professional development for themselves, which is what we talked about just a minute ago, and really having principals prioritize that. Um, you know, I think you can have a mindset with the students of we're gonna learn together. Um, it's important to again set up those those guidelines for safety and respect, but also help students understand that um when we talk about these issues, especially if they're not um used to talking about race and racism, that that they need to, along with the teacher, accept that there's gonna be discomfort and that there's gonna be uncertainty and that it's a process and there's there's there aren't easy answers. Um, and acknowledge that you know, talking about race and racism, just like many hard topics, is a process and it takes time. Um, you know, I think we want to help them think about opportunities to learn about others and foster empathy. And if that that experience doesn't exist in the classroom, you know, bring that perspective in through books, through videos, through movies and articles and stories by teens. Um, and and so that you bring those voices. If those voices aren't in the room, you bring them into the room. Um, I do think it's important to talk about systemic racism and systemic bias. Um, and sometimes if you start there, um, students might be less defensive when they're thinking about what they're personally doing. Um, but it is important to address white privilege, which is, I think, hard for many teachers. Um, and I had suggested in that resource that one way to do that is to maybe start with another form of privilege, like age privilege. So all young people know what it feels like to not have age privilege and to experience discrimination based on their age. And if sometimes if you can start with that um and then get them to see, you know, um there are other elements of privilege that we all have, and that we, because we have multiple aspects of our identity, sometimes we are in a privileged group and power group, and sometimes we're in a discriminated group. So, you know, start with something that they're all kind of on the same page and on the level with, and then move into other areas that may be harder for them to address.
SPEAKER_01As teachers, we love we love it when our students take action. Uh sort of the it's when we feel as teachers like we have made a difference when our students take action on their own with what they've learned. What action would you hope students take away from these conversations, maybe after using or viewing resources from ADL? What kind of action would you hope students would take?
SPEAKER_00We that's critical. Um, we always, no matter how whether the child is five or 15, it's so important to really um think about something they can do that's that's real and that is on their developmental level. So, you know, that could be if we're talking about racism, it could be, you know, in a in an early childhood classroom, bringing more books into the classroom that have more um stories about people of color. At older ages, it may be that they want to do something in their school, like teaching, they want to post important information on social media. Um, maybe they want to get involved in a racism or Black Lives Matter group in their community or in their school, or look at what some of the issues of bias are happening in their school. So I think it really depends. I think it's important to give a variety of options, right? Because some are small and modest and fine, and some are more long-term, and it depends on what how much interest they have and how much time they have. Um, it's also helpful if they help to come up with the ideas. You know, I think it's hard when we're telling them as adults or as teachers or as principals, this is what you should do. It should really come from them. Um, both the initiation of doing something and what that action is, we can help them, right? As the as the as the adults or educators in their lives, but um, you know, it's important that they come up with ideas themselves.
SPEAKER_01And students, of course, are so plugged into social media. Uh what's your view of social media when it comes to um these issues, especially for the anti-defamation league fighting anti-Semitism and racism? What's what's the balance sheet look like for you with social media?
SPEAKER_00Right. I mean, there's obviously we've talked about all the harm that's caused by social media, and there is a lot of that, but I think it's amazing and it's created amazing opportunities for young people to connect with each other. Got involved in a lot of work last year and you know was using social media and Instagram to meet new people, and then they would have in-person events, and then they would have when the pandemic happened, they would have then digital events. And these were people, some of whom she knew and some that she didn't. So I think on balance, it's such a great thing, and it's where young, it's where teenagers live. So we can't dismiss it at all. We need to help them, you know, discern what's positive about it and what's really challenging. We actually do a lot of another area of our work is bullying and cyberbullying and online hate and helping young people kind of navigate their all those digital spaces. Um, but we never want to give the impression that we think it's a negative thing. Um, there's so much positive that can come, so much organizing, meeting other like-minded people, sharing important messages. Um, so you know, I think it's it's a balance. We need to be mindful that there is that negative, hateful stuff out there that they need to navigate. So it's it's a both end.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. For a teacher listening that uh is interested in using some of your resources or at least just beginning to uh immerse themselves in it, where where would you recommend that teachers start?
SPEAKER_00So we have, as I mentioned, 25 regional offices. So if you're in a certain place in the country and you want to connect with training or program or programs, um you can connect with that regional office, which you can find on the website. But we have a whole slew of online resources that are all free. Um, if you go to avl.org backslash education, you'll go straight to them. We have online lesson plans that are called the current events classroom, which take current events and that intersect with our anti-biased um framework. We have um something called Table Talk, which is a family discussion guide about some of those similar um current events. And then we have Books Matter, which is an online bibliography of children's and young adult books that intersect with these same issues. And then we have other resources too, especially for our early childhood educators. We have a question corner, which is all about bias, diversity, and injustice questions for parents or caregivers of very young children. So there's a lot there to choose from, and you can also sign up for our newsletter and you get any, you would get information about anything new coming up.
SPEAKER_01ADL is pretty responsive to current events. Uh, your your resources are not only thorough but also very up to date. I wonder what's the process that you take for developing resources and curriculum in such a way that you are um keeping up with fast-moving events and important topics.
SPEAKER_00Right. Well, the great thing about ADL is we um we have many several different departments. So we have a civil rights department. I was just working with them on a lesson about reparations. So we're connecting with the issues, and so many election issues have come up, obviously, recently, that we then you know connect with them and get their help in in thinking about both what teachers are interested in teaching about and what's coming up in schools and getting their expertise. And then we also have a center on extremism, and we've created resources on those topics as well. And um, you know, it's a pretty quick process, um, especially for issues that are you know coming up right here and now. We've done a lot on immigration and issues at the border, um, child family separations, um, all those kinds of issues um, you know, are important to bring into the classroom, and teachers are really looking for them very quickly, um, as quickly as they can. And sometimes they'll they'll just use an article or a video from the lesson or the whole entire thing. So you can you can take it apart or use the whole thing as you see fit.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'll I'll agree with that, having used your resources. It is very, in a way, it has a very nice modular feel to it where you can use the whole thing or you can pull out individual resources depending on exactly what you're doing that day. Uh, Jenny Spiegler, I want to thank you so much for joining me today and sharing this. And uh I'm gonna be linking uh lots of your work in the show notes so uh listeners can uh check it out and uh it's important work you're doing to help students uh move us all along in the future.
SPEAKER_00Great. Thank you so much. It was great to talk with you today.
SPEAKER_01Big thanks to Jenny Spiegler from the Anti-Defamation League. If you've been into this part in the podcast, if you've listened all the way through, then you're probably pretty interested. And what I've done is in the show notes, I've put links to some of the resources we discussed in the episode. If you go to just adl.org, um that's their landing page. You might have a little trouble with so much going on at that website. They cover so many different things. So I'm actually gonna put in the show notes some of the specific links that might help you get started having those conversations with students, uh, feeling empowered to have those conversations and uh being willing to put up with discomfort, frankly, and uh and and and kind of enjoy the fruits of what happens on the other side of those difficult conversations when you see students who are willing to acknowledge this national history, talk about this nation's history, talk about its impact on today, and what we can do to improve uh uh the and what we can do in this country to stop racism, stop anti-Semitism, and start moving towards the ideals of this country. Uh lofty terms, but that's ultimately what I think we're trying to do in education. Thanks for listening to what's the big idea. Um and uh appreciate any comments you want to leave on Twitter at Big IdeaUb. I'd love to hear if any other footers out there are using uh definitely materials or four-foot four tutorials on how to do it.
